Modify or Remove Cloning Rule #6

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Cloning Rule #6 states that, no matter the circumstance, all cloning applications are denied automatically unless you come to staff with extraordinary circumstance.
Why?

Some arguments may be:

The character turned off their auto-cloning before committing suicide Well then why is the player posting a cloning application at all? After all, the player is the one controlling the character and, clearly, the character had some form of cloning set up. If the character turns off auto-cloning, then of course, the player wouldn't even make an application, and just smack a big [DECEASED] label on the character, and call it a day. Even if the auto-cloning was off, the firmness of Cloning Rule #6 means that even if they are forcefully cloned by friends or relatives, it fails (for reasons unknown.)

The character would just commit suicide again immediately - If that's the case, then the player can have them do that. It's not like the player would remember the suicide or anything. In fact, since most suicides are knee-jerk reactions to extremely horrible events (for example, committing suicide the morning after your entire family dies in a house fire), many characters would not even have reason to commit suicide. Also, Rule #6 prevents something like, say, forcefully cloning someone and preventing them from committing suicide for information that may have been what had driven them to suicide. While this might not be a common situation, it's an extremely interesting one, but cannot happen because of Rule #6.

My suggestion:

At the very least, modify the rule to say something along the lines of "The applicant must describe why their character has committed suicide." I can understand, as well as anyone, that the rule is a preventative countermeasure that keeps people from committing suicide to avoid consequences. I would say that if the rule is modified in a way that states that cloning from suicide may be barred "at staff discretion" would still prevent someone consecutively using suicide as an escape method, but still allow those who have committed suicide for legitimate reasons to clone as normal.

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We don't want someone to bank on suicide to try and forward their character's story.

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Exactly! So when they do that - that is, commit suicide for dumb reasons or as a stupid way to forward their story - you can just tell them "no"! Also, I've never, ever really seen that happen, while I've seen plenty of other times people have intentionally tried to find ways around the suicide rule like asking for someone else to shoot them or suicide by cop.

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7 hours ago, PrivateNomad said:

We don't want someone to bank on suicide to try and forward their character's story.

Since when was it staff's job to filter what people can do with their stories, given it doesn't mess with others'? 

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3 minutes ago, Shay said:

Since when was it staff's job to filter what people can do with their stories, given it doesn't mess with other's? 

Yeah, that too.

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I agree with this suggestion. The idea of refusing applications based on method of death alone is frankly very stupid, and only removes from the story and roleplay. Besides, it doesn't even make any sense- WHY are all suicide victims so mysteriously rejected by cloning machines? Are characters just supposed to ignore the fact that they tried to clone the victim, only for it to catastrophically fail for no reason at all?

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5 hours ago, PrivateNomad said:

We don't want someone to bank on suicide to try and forward their character's story.

This doesn't seem very valid, IMO. Not staff's place to. I feel rule 6 should be situational, like if they kill themselves to avoid being arrested.

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2 hours ago, Yongzhi2000 said:

This doesn't seem very valid, IMO. Not staff's place to. I feel rule 6 should be situational, like if they kill themselves to avoid being arrested.

I agree with this. If its to escape punishment, either the cloning takes much longer, or they are refused.

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6 hours ago, Shay said:

Since when was it staff's job to filter what people can do with their stories, given it doesn't mess with others'? 

Since Staff are not only OOC Staff but they're also the Game Masters trying to keep the story going smoothly. Remember this isn't your character's story; your character is part of the story, but not the center of it.

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Just now, Drakkar said:

Since Staff are not only OOC Staff but they're also the Game Masters trying to keep the story going smoothly. Remember this isn't your character's story; your character is part of the story, but not the center of it.

Alright, I'll say it again-how is it any way fair that you are allowed to dictate what people can do with their characters, given it does not interfere with another's story? Doesn't seem right in any way.

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Just now, Shay said:

Alright, I'll say it again-how is it any way fair that you are allowed to dictate what people can do with their characters, given it does not interfere with another's story? Doesn't seem right in any way.

You're not new to Role-Playing. This shouldn't be surprising at all.

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Just now, Drakkar said:

You're not new to Role-Playing. This shouldn't be surprising at all.

And you're dodging the question as to what gives you the right to say how one's story is meant to go?

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Drakkar what you're describing is story-telling on a grand scale, not roleplaying. People should be able to do whatever they want with their own personal stories inside of the server as long as it isn't breaking rules, and you can see here several people asking that a certain rule putting a "vice" on RP capabilities (for example, a character being cloned after suicide and say, having a big emotional turnaround) be elimiated or changed.

Staff and community should both drive the story forward, not staff exlusively. And not with the rule "As long as staff like what the community does."

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2 minutes ago, Elsie said:

Drakkar what you're describing is story-telling on a grand scale, not roleplaying. People should be able to do whatever they want with their own personal stories inside of the server as long as it isn't breaking rules, and you can see here several people asking that a certain rule putting a "vice" on RP capabilities (for example, a character being cloned after suicide and say, having a big emotional turnaround) be elimiated or changed.

Staff and community should both drive the story forward, not staff exlusively. And not with the rule "As long as staff like what the community does."

Story-telling is a part of role-playing, which is why I mentioned the latter in my reply.

As for the rest, you've hit the nail in the head - particularly with the last sentence.

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Anyway, my thoughts. I understand that suicide can be used to escape IC consequences for OOC reasons. I feel like the restriction, if any, should be imposed on the player who knowingly executes his character to try escaping a sitiuation where they are in danger, for the purpose of being cloned as part of an OOC agenda or gripe.

I think a player whose character commits suicide for any reason aside from power/metagaming should be allowed to do that, regardless of its story value.

Edited by Elsie
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To explain my point of view in general, suicide in general (from my experience) is just bad for storytelling in general. Also in my experience, suicide in general meant instant permadeath because of that. It isn't a new life rule from the result of someone killing your character, it's the result of you ending the life of your own character. Cloning always has and always will be an OOC thing with some IC flavor, it's just meant as a way to control the quality of roleplay and make death meaningful. We don't want characters to go 'oh i commit suicide blah blah but im just gonna clone and now im edgy' just to forward their character arc if we, or I, can help it. As for other things such as forced cloning, that is covered under the special circumstances clause.

tl;dr: "i killed myself because im edgy and now im edgier"

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2 hours ago, PrivateNomad said:

To explain my point of view in general, suicide in general (from my experience) is just bad for storytelling in general. Also in my experience, suicide in general meant instant permadeath because of that. It isn't a new life rule from the result of someone killing your character, it's the result of you ending the life of your own character. Cloning always has and always will be an OOC thing with some IC flavor, it's just meant as a way to control the quality of roleplay and make death meaningful. We don't want characters to go 'oh i commit suicide blah blah but im just gonna clone and now im edgy' just to forward their character arc if we, or I, can help it. As for other things such as forced cloning, that is covered under the special circumstances clause.

tl;dr: "i killed myself because im edgy and now im edgier"

Just because it's not the best RP doesn't mean it should be enforced against with actual rules– that's like the US government outlawing swears because it's morally wrong to insult other people.

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Like mentioned, staff doesn't have the right to dictate what people do with their characters as long as it doesn't break the rules.

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17 hours ago, Pinkbat5 said:

Just because it's not the best RP doesn't mean it should be enforced against with actual rules– that's like the US government outlawing swears because it's morally wrong to insult other people.

Nail2Head.

I agree with you that it's in poor taste to use suicide as a cheap way to further your story, and that's the beauty of it -- so does everyone else. Everyone recognizes that committing suicide for tear-jerk value is a crock of shit, so why exactly are we forcing permadeath on the people who try to do it? It's a lot like "gun-free zones." The only affect it has is permanently killing off any chance of suicide being an actual thing anyone ever goes through in the server because it's a huge OOC taboo. Now, instead of suicide, you have people suicide by cop and doing other strange things to get around the loopholes. Those who actually would be the ones abusing the system, though? Why, they'll just come back without making a cloning app and I doubt anyone would really notice.

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Bringing this back from the dead, as someone who is entirely aware of why this rule is in place. I've been here plenty long enough to see the miracle of members who used suicide on their characters for attention multiple times.

 

I don't see the reason for arguing against this, honestly. Put a disclaimer that suicide related incidents are more likely to be denied, but it's not like it'd be any more of a task than it already is to evaluate the applications, coming from someone who has in the past. There may be a few more applications, and it might require asking the member to elaborate a bit better to prove that they were not using it as a cop out, but the harsh reality is the players using suicide for the purpose that rule six is attempting to deny will probably not fill out a cloning app and revive themselves somehow regardless under the radar.

In the US alone 6.7% of the population suffers from some form of depression. Suicide costs probably close to 50 thousand American lives per year (with a population of 318.9 million). I understand that this is not a good tool to use for storytelling, but in cases especially where another character attempts to revive someone who killed themselves it should not be this situation where some magic wand was waved and broke the cloning pod. Then we better have in-character tabloids rumoring that cloning pods are sentient and can detect when their user does not want to return. Any smart suicide attempt would involve disabling it, though.

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As someone who has dealt with long term depression, I honestly don't think someone having a character reflecting something that occurs commonly in reality is needs to determine them 'unruly', so why force perma on them? Assign defects as you will, deny the majority of suicide applications on the grounds of the case being illogical, just don't outright ban them and encourage players to act less realistic in-character for fear of out-of-character punishment. The world can be dark sometimes, that's just the reality. I don't enjoy roleplaying emotional pain, but it's part of the experience that wouldn't make things seem so real without it.

Back before cloning rules were enforced and it was mostly free game for it, I can recall a few instances where players executed a suicide cloning extremely well, despite the fact they would have been immediately denied by rule six. A particular player actually had full intent of permanently killing themselves but after a coalition of players worked diligently to bring them back from the dead in-character, they took serious memory repercussions and brought the character back in a way that felt as natural as it could considering we live in a reality where these technologies do not exist as of the present.

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Personally, I think you should be able to come back from suicide, but it should take 2 to 3 times longer, and maybe some extra side effects.

But I also think that if your character commits suicide then why would you bother applying for a cloning app? Because if you do want to keep playing that character, why would you commit suicide in the first place? The only exception would be if in a serious situation, someone forces you to kill yourself, to prevent other consequences. But that should be the only exception.

tl;dr

Suicide is usually something you shouldn't do anyways.

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